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DavidAshton
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 15:13:24
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Can someone explain what it is with the boating world? is the point just to have so much money you write the cheques and don't ask any questions?
I bought my first boat in Sept so I'm new to it, and had stroke of bad luck within the first month, thats all resolved now but I did learn a lesson!
so...
Turns out - when my boat was out of the water the mechanic failed to tell me that it could probably do with a new prop, i found this out later through a 3rd party and saw some photos that made me think yes i do!
so - sounds simple enough?
I shopped around for quotes, and one boatyard said that they will only charge me for 1 way crane lift if i supply there correct prop, so I have to be certain to get the right one... BUT, looking in the **** documentation I got when I bought the boat it doesn't say the EXACT model of the engine, so when I rang Bob Knowles as recommended he didn't take any prisoners, and was pretty abrupt, and didn't fill me with confidence when he said he 'thinks' this is the right one.
I then looked on eBay as he said its a 13/10, found one that was a fraction of the cost of what he quoted, after the bay person initially ignore my email, he then replied saying that they only sell Outboard props and not inboard so can't help (I didn't know there was a difference)!! i looks exactly the same as the one that was on my boat!!
Why do these people make it so difficult? I mean, if i got one on eBay for £50, then got this company to crane out one way and fit we are talking £250 total, but thats a risk as if the prop doesn't fit then its gonna cost 2 ways for the crane plus another prop etc etc etc
Go to a boatyard and they quote silly money, plus i imagine the boat would then be out of the water for about 6+ weeks as they do it when they want, and await a new or refurb of the prop
Why cant anyone just give a straight answer like a mechanic at a car garage?
I don't even know how to find out the exact model of the engine, with it being an inboard its a nightmare to get into the engine area, does any of this info shed any light on it to you guys?
The boat is a Norman 20 from 1978), Ford Petrol Engine, Enfield 130 Drive. I've taken pics of what i can get to in the engine, theres a metal plaque screwed on from CT Marine Ltd, says Model number: FP 80 Z, serial 3014, also says BOWMAN 3120 FM160
Any help greatly appreciated!
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trevork
3949 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 17:39:11
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I think Flinty knows all about all things Enfield! Need to catch him before the weekend though or he'll be pickled with Aunty Sonia's medicine!
PS. Even though it might have been a tad gruff, its likely Bob Knowles is right as he is just about the only reliable source for Enfield bits but, you are right, he gives nowt away!
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df
United Kingdom
5994 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 19:56:40
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On an enfield 130 there's only one spline option and it will be 14" diameter max (I don't remember if they did any smaller), as for pitch if you couldn't give Bob engine power and weight of the boat laden he can only guess as there's no hard and fast rules (prop sizes are a mixture of black magic and voodoo)to be honest he would still be guessing if you did give him the info but it would be a closer guess.
Outboards use various different spline sizes with some plain & shear pin.
They can all be put on different boats of different weights and different hull shapes being used for different purposes.
The yard that would only charge one lift if you could do it there and then were doing you a favour, crane drivers don't work for minimum wage and all the inspections and insurance don't come cheap, if they chock the boat for you they are liable for any damage so it won't be free, it could tie up the crane stopping them do other jobs.
quote:
Why cant anyone just give a straight answer like a mechanic at a car garage?
Put your car in a river and ask a mechanic for a quote to fix the bits he can't see.
Welcome to the wonderful world of boating, you should have asked the last couple of lines here first....
Could have been worse, Malc bought a cheap prop and put it on only to find out it was the wrong rotation and spent the next couple of seasons using reverse gear. (BTW enfield recommended LH rotation for single setups for some reason but that's never guaranteed)
When I called for info on my props the guy at clements engineering came up with original prop specs for the boat with engine/gearbox configuration off the top of his head and calculated what he thought it should have, it was going to be £450 each + vat and there was no guarantee the pitch would be right but at least they do one free re-pitch on new props, I would still have to cover the cranage though.
The main thing is you learnt something, first boats always have a huge learning curve attached, I've just gone through another going from outdrives to shafts and I bet it's cost me more...
Edit: You did change the gaiters on that outdrive while it was out didn't you?
NBAS--The communal colostomy bag of the boating community.
 Visit leomagill.co.uk |
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Mad Harold
United Kingdom
228 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 20:41:53
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If you put Enfield 130 Z drive into Google search,a service manual comes up.My N20 is outboard powered,so changing the prop is easy.
A quick look at the manual[I may be wrong here]says that the drive unit will swing sideways and up for parking,and I assume for prop removal.
I am also new to boating and was ripped off by a boatyard who took full advantage of my lack of boating knowledge.I was treated like a complete idiot,lied to,overcharged and got the impression that they were doing me a favour.
I have learned very quickly.
Best of luck. |
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Knighty
United Kingdom
654 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 20:59:03
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| Don't you know anyone who has a trailer you could borrow ? 20's are easy to slip out and will save you a fortune on craning. |
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stratford4528
United Kingdom
414 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 22:30:45
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| Why do you need to take boat out The enfield leg will lift up and if you are lucky some have got a worm gear and you can wind it up to the side. I can wind my leg right up and change the prop over the stern. The old prop will have the size on it |
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trevork
3949 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 22:39:31
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| There you go David! A bit to go on at least. Please let us know how you get on and come back and ask again if anything else puzzles (winds you up) ! |
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IanM
United Kingdom
2238 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 22:52:36
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It's a valid rant and there are two main reasons for the difference between car garages and boat yards:
1. Most boats are non-standard. Tell a car garage the make, model and year of a car and they can call up a complete parts list for it. Boats require a bit of detective work, especially those at the budget end of the price range.
2. You've probably got dozens of car garages within a 30 minute drive of you. You're lucky if you have more than a couple of boatyards within half a day of you.
There is also that mystical thing known as Canal Time. Stuff takes longer because... Canal Time. It's come close to driving me nuts in the past but mostly I try to slow down into it. Tact, diplomacy and patience - three virtues that elude me. 
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 02:17:57
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David, there is a release to unlock the outdrive so it tilts, or a starting handle (remember those?) to crank it up sideways as DF told you.
Streamlined Propellers will repair Enfield props cheaply like new, they do ALL makes of props and sell pattern props that are well engineered cheaper than the originals and better too!
You can take off your own prop, drag the boat stern-to the bank with the drive up, remove the stainless split pin and the plastic prop cone, slide out the shear pin and pull off the prop.
Wrap it in plastic bin bags and send it via Hermes or similar.
Contacts and details here:
http://www.streamlinedpropellers.co.uk/
Finally living the dream!
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df
United Kingdom
5994 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 10:15:44
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Enfield 130's are splined Clive with tab washer, and yes they can be done on a slip with a good pair of wellies (I've changed props stood in the river in snow before, it was bloody freezing), flick the revesing catch and loop a rope round the bottom to tie it up and pull the boat backwards up a slip till the front edge of the leg touches then get wading.
The hardest bit is using a hammer on the tab washer under water.
I didn't have room to use the sideways swing on Leo as it had trim tabs in the way so forgot about that bit.
NBAS--The communal colostomy bag of the boating community.
Visit leomagill.co.uk |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 17:16:17
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Mine had a plastic or nylon dome "nut" retained by a stainless split pin, then as you say prop on a splined shaft retained by a stainless steel pin that was stopped from falling out by the plastic dome "nut" which pushed on and was held by the split pin.
How do I remember - because out trolling in the channel one morning along with some locals we were drifting down on the tide trolling in circles anti-clockwise following a shoal of mackerel and pollock, maybe 10 boats. Out comes some idiot holiday-maker in a speedboat who thought he'd join in but went clockwise, cut tight across my bow and I had to go hard astern to avoid ramming him (I should have just sunk him).
I was towing gear which happily wrapped itself around the prop. As it was an Enfield 130 I simply cranked it up and hanging over the stern-rail attempted to remove prop and gear. Unfortunately we were bouncing a bit and my ex was hanging onto my legs, I got the prop and pin but dropped the plastic cone in the 'oggin. Not having a spare we came back on a Seagull Silver Century on a 10:1 petroil mix - slowly!
Bought necessary parts plus a spare but was accosted by Harbour Master and local Coastguard who had been having an argument over whether or not I was in distress - the cloud of noxious smoke indicating a fire aboard according to the Harbour Master who wanted to send help, vs someone using an old Seagull according to the Coastguard.
Harbour Master nil, Coastguard 1.
Finally living the dream!
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df
United Kingdom
5994 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 18:47:23
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I don't remember seeing a split pin hole in any of the outdrive shafts I had (about 6 at one point)so I have a feeling yours had been bodged with an outboard cone and drilled for the pin.
I had some real old enfield junk too with a mix of the old and newer type steering arms, all had aluminium cone and tab washer.
You don't need an old seagull for a cloud of noxious smoke, volvo tmd41's will suffice, especially on a cold start, one of the regular booked moorings I have for snowbird normally has a board put out saying smogbird or smokebird, you have to keep up on your reputation you know....
As for the first open up of the throttles after a winter poodling about on the rivers, that has badgers rolling dead from hedgerows and seagulls falling from the skies, who needs hiroshima I bring my own mushroom cloud.
Deano had his moments too...
NBAS--The communal colostomy bag of the boating community.
Visit leomagill.co.uk |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 02:06:42
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At that time it was only 3 months old Dave,brand new engine/drive installation. I remember the white nylon dome, thought I remembered a split pin but looking at the manual I see you are correct - the dome nut or spinner nut is retained by a tab washer. Still, never mind, I did drop the thing into the sea though!
I'm wondering which unit I have fixed in my head with a loose spinner split pin retained holding the locking pin of a prop on a splined shaft?
Apologies - I am wrong and you are right.
However - the OP can lift or crank his drive up and take off the prop while afloat and THAT is the salient point. Just don't drop the spinner nut lol.
It's a poor copy but service manual is here in pdf free download:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/davenrich/Assets/ENFIELD%20Z-DRIVE.pdf
Another copy, parts are clearer to read:
http://www.boatservicehaarlem.nl/enfield-outdrive.pdf
Chertsey Meads keep all the bits:
http://www.boatsthames.com/engineering.shtml
Finally living the dream!
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Edited by - cliveshep on 22 Apr 2017 02:25:17 |
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df
United Kingdom
5994 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 10:32:24
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Or there's always Malcs trick, tie the boat up tightly in bardney lock and let the water out, go underneath in a dinghy and change prop.
THAT IS NOT ADVICE! THAT IS A VERY BAD IDEA! DON'T DO IT!
Malc knew how to save money.....
NBAS--The communal colostomy bag of the boating community.
Visit leomagill.co.uk |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 15:20:11
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I miss Malc, quite a character even if a bit over-sensitive at times
Finally living the dream!
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DavidAshton
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 16:35:18
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Thanks for the replies, some good info there, might just do it myself!
Also good to hear I'm not the only one that feels mugged off at times by boatyards!
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Rant
