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Canveysteve
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2016 : 10:19:14
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Hiya will be putting a ford xld 1.8 in my new norman running a pmr 120 and prop drive thro the trans , can anyone advise how low the waterline is from the deck / hull joint that has a diesel fitted ?
What are the recomedid for the side lower n mid rubbing strakes ?
The boat i found is registerd on this site before i purchased how would i go about contacting that person ? " serenity "
Thanks to all |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 03:17:15
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No-one is going to be able to answer that question unless they have got a similar set-up already running or have done it before. I cannot remember that sort of thing either.
The easiest way to answer that question is to buy some bags of sand or gravel from a merchant equal to the combined weight of engine plus box (or plus outdrive) and simply dump them on the floor over where you plan to put the engine thus ballasting the hull down.
Then get a tape and measure whatever you need. (Assumes boat still in the water of course)
Sealed bags of gravel are cheap, you can later use them on something at home or simply sprinkle in a puddle somewhere.
When you say pmr box and prop drive through the transom I am confused and wonder if you mean installing a shaft drive set-up? The PMR box is for shaft-drive boats so you'll need to cut a large orifice (I love that word!) through the kelson of the Norman thus leaving the hull sides flapping, and fit a shaft log. Outboard of that underneath you'll need a "P" bracket and outboard of that a rudder-tube for the rudder although you could mount that externally (and visibly) on the beefed-up transom. You'll need to build up the transom and remove the outboard well of course.
Meanwhile the front of your engine could be somewhere inside your forrard saloon doorway. It's all about shaft angle that allows the prop to turn without hacking away the hull.
To create the sub-structure for a shaft drive on an old boat involves an enormous amount of structural glass-fibre work not least being stiffening the hull where the keel and kelson are cut away, stiffening considerable the flat hull sections to carry the loads imposed by outboard "P" bracket and rudder, and installing longtidudinal bearers to adequately carry the engine and gearbox.
In addition, you might have a difficult job to walk forrard due too a massive engine box in the middle of the cabin doorway. I doubt you could conceal THAT lump under the cockpit floor as the lowest it could go would have the sump about 4 inches above the hull.
Check other boats on the Norman register, in particulasr "My Mimi" which is a 27 with a similar engine coupled to a stern-drive.
If you already have a PRM box, and they are wonderful boxes for larger boats, I strongly suggest you sell it on and locate a stern-drive unit instead. that way your aft cabin could still have single berths to either side of an engine box - I've done that on Normans before. It was a common upgrade or new installation on full transom Norman hulls that were sold as hull and superstructure only.
I don't think Serenity being a very pretty 27 would accept the inboard without it projecting into the forrard cabin area as well as obstructing the aft cabin access. Ok, I haven't done a 27 narrow beam so could be wrong here.But you'll find all the 32's are stern-drive boats, mostly with Enfield 130's and they are bigger boats.
Have you checked all your dimensions carefully? Height, width,length of complete unit, angle of shaft into gearbox, and plotted exactly where the engine will extend to? It is quite a big lump especially if you add on the water pump, alternators, oil coolers and the like. My Ocean had a Thorneycroft 1.8 BMC based diesel coupled to a ZF box and even on a boat of that size the engine projected 2 feet into the main saloon, the casing formed a cuboard worktop 800mm (2ft 8") above the saloon floor and the engine extended 300mm (a foot) below the cabin sole into the bilge. It was quite a big and heavy lump. there was some space under the worktop to top of engine air-filter to be fair
Apropos rubbing strakes - in the picture Serenity doesn't appear to have any and before you fit them you really need to ballast down with possibly some bow ballast as "My Mimi's" owner commented and establish a new load/water line. Then fit rubbing strakes at least 150mm above that or risk rot and water ingress. Also - strakes need to have a backing timber inside to spread loads.
Sorry this is a long-winded post.
Finally living the dream!
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Canveysteve
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 19:45:35
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Wow ! Thats a real reply lol thank you , the rubbing strats are curently missing so for tim being il prob just fill / paint the holes till she is in the water ,
Didnt want to go keel direction as said am looking at going thro the transom at the lowest point i have spoke to a boat builder who cam up with a idea of having the fromt of the engine facing back ( gear box to cabin ) the from the gbox chain drive to the prop itself , ) he showed me a few aswell and aparently a few large vesel use this aswell
Im jus not 100% that the prop will be in the water enouf ! Rudder will be as a outridgeeer ( hydoplan sort of set up) the boat is a total rec atm so having to spend alot on it but im a mechanic and like a chalange !!
Just trying to find window seals as previos owner has removed them all :(
Thanls for you advise what du think re the chain setup |
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stratford4528
United Kingdom
414 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 21:28:22
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| Chain drive is going to be very tricky. Tooth belt would be better. But to be honest the prop might not be low enough in the water. Look around for a z drive and make a good job of it. |
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Canveysteve
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 21:45:35
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| Did look at z drives but cant afford 1 :( du know of any fulty ones avalibal but compleet |
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stratford4528
United Kingdom
414 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 01:12:46
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| Just have to look I bought a boat with a Perkins 4108 and enfield leg for less than £500 and I bought another enfield leg for £132.and I bought a calamcraft with a sonic z drive and escort diesol for less than £500 |
Edited by - stratford4528 on 13 Aug 2016 01:16:53 |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 02:04:18
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Your post title refers to a Norman 23 Mk II, but in the post you refer to your "new" boat as being called "Serenity" that is a Norman 27. Which boat is it?
Your chain-drive idea could work but you'll need to build-in a plummer block (that is a thrust block) or the shaft will simply travel forward and rip out the chain. It will be a very long arrangement up high to permit the shaft to pass under the engine. Your builder is quite correct and on a larger craft it works well because you can accomodate the much higher c of g the arrangement entails. One other thing - the engine should not be inclined back high unless you check that the sump oil pickup stays in the oil, having the engine level driving an angled shaft is possible utilising a "layrub" flexible coupling but the support bearings and jack-shaft required etc might increase your costs too significantly.
I'm not so sure it will work well on a centre cockpit narrow beam grp canal boat though if that is what you have, and on a Norman 23 it will fill the cockpit completely. You'd need to do a lot of calculations and measurements. Having an engine casing 4 feet high in your cabin might render future sale of the boat impossible or difficult. Don't forget - your outboard rudder will have it's steering arm inside the boat thus forcing you to mount the engine further forward to clear the steering gear.
Look here, this explains the logic behind desired prop-shaft angles:
http://www.sfmbc.net/propshaft_angles.pdf
Finally living the dream!
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Edited by - cliveshep on 13 Aug 2016 02:19:19 |
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Canveysteve
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 05:47:01
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| Will look at the prop now , def a norman 23 the one i own has no pic on the register |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2016 : 12:04:03
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Aah - well, you said it was called "Serenity" and there is only one, the 27 so...........2 + 2 = 27ft in this case.
Finally living the dream!
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trevork
3949 Posts |
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Canveysteve
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2016 : 20:20:25
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| Thanks trvork thats the 1 i think it mine as sumone started then walked away ! Any idae how to find who addid her to the list ? |
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trevork
3949 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2016 : 23:10:10
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| It was many years ago Steve unforunately and I no longer have records of who registered what! Apologies! |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
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df
United Kingdom
5994 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2016 : 18:33:40
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Without wanting to offend (there's a first for me) the drive line you suggest sounds ghastly in a norman 23 and will probably render it unsellable and a pain in the ar5e to maintain, get hold of an enfield leg or convert for an outboard is the way to go, it may cost more at first but the setup you mention will soon start to mount up unforeseen costs and exceed a normal setup before you even take into account of ongoing maintenence.
Boat projects never run to budget....
NBAS--The communal colostomy bag of the boating community.
Visit leomagill.co.uk |
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stratford4528
United Kingdom
414 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2016 : 21:07:45
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| I totally agree with DF you should listen to the experienced people on this Forum. |
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Canveysteve
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2016 : 19:03:02
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| Is petrol avalibal on canals n rivers as have never seen it ?? |
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Norman 23 mk2
