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fitvit
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
 Posted - 12 May 2016 : 17:28:18
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Stinky damp smell inside the boat so the carnage began. I ripped everything out trying to find where it was coming from. Eventually took up the flooring in the V - shape berth, and found underneath, a pillow was being used to soak up water. The smell was coming from the pillow. Underneath the pillow was this hole full of silicone sealer. When I put my weight anywhere near the hole, water would start bubbling up between the silicone. I assumed it was for a depth finder or something and it would be quite a easy fix once the boat was out of the water. Its now out of the water and I can't find the damn hole underneath. I've now removed the silicone sealer from the hole inside the boat and have arrived at the length of wood in the stern. (I think thats what its called!) Even though the boat is now on hard standing, I still have water in the stern. If I put my weight near the hole water still bubbles up. I'm therefore assuming the length of the wood in the stern is saturated in water and unable to find its way out. Underneath the damn boat is dry as a bone - can't understand why!? Any ideas why my stern would be water logged with no obvious sign of entry underneath??
ford |
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df
United Kingdom
5994 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 19:02:13
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The water has most likely got in through the top as rain or condensation and sat in the bottom long enough to seep into the stringer, when they are laid up there's usually gaps in the grp around the joins in the stringers(shouldn't be but normans were never top of the range layup).
To properly dry you'd need to cut out the top of the grp along the stringers but that will lose most of their strength, probably better to drill small holes in the side of the stringer right next to the outer hull and let it drain out but it will take a very long time to dry.
It does mean the wood in the keel itself is probably fairly rotten.
NBAS--The communal colostomy bag of the boating community.
Visit leomagill.co.uk |
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fitvit
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 23:56:02
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I'm lay awake mulling it over, and I think I may have the leaky suspect . . . the sea toilet! Someone put a sea toilet in which I ripped out while looking for the smell. Underneath the hull, where the pipes come out, the grommets (think thats what they are called) aren't sitting flush with the boat. I'm wondering if water could have been leaking in between the skins via the ill fitted grommet.
ford |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 03:20:10
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The timber that is waterlogged is the hog, an inside keel stiffener glassed-in when they laid up the hull. As Dave says, bilge water from whatever source would soak through the glass layup if there were any holes.
This is where you learn how to repair glass fibre!
Remove the floors and sole boards (floors are actually the joists on a boat!).
Get a wood chisel and cut away the lay-up close to hull, in the angle between hog and hull. Expose the wood which is almost certainly rotten.
Cut away the glass for at least 3 feet (90cm) in from the transom and inspect the wood. It may well be rotten for most of that and possibly more. However, don't cut away more that the length of the cockpit less say a foot because below is a keel moulding in the 3ft in from transom extending under the cabin and that will stiffen the hull.
Find some 6" x 1" sawn hardwood, an oak fencing gravel board will do and is easy to source and hack away the rotten hog and dry out the whole area. You may well expose the hollow keel - suck out the water and allow the hull to dry for a bit.
Buy or borrow a hot air paint stripper and get a shave-hook - the triangular paint scraper. Heat the area to either side to soften the resin and scrape it back leaving a nice rough surface with exposed glass fibres - the rougher the better. Do a band at least 75mm/3 inches wide either side of the hog.
Cut your new hog to match the old, bevel the top long edges, and lay it in position. Cut a peice about 60cm/3 feet long and lay it across the join and screw it down to old and new hog.
Get some woven bi-directional cloth and cut to cover the new hog and the splice extending at least 3 inches to either side down the line of the hog and past the end of splice and new hog.
Lay up with 3 layers of the cloth and resin, use a small ridged laminating roller on this to make sure it bonds down with no air bubbles.
Refit floors and sole-boards and now you are a boat-builder's apprentice! Resin and glass cloth from East Coast Fibreglass Supplies, they do mail order for everything you'll need.
Edit - and get rid of that silicone and, as above, glass fibre patch over it properly.
Finally living the dream!
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Edited by - cliveshep on 13 May 2016 03:21:38 |
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Deano
United Kingdom
1843 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 17:10:35
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When removing the silicone..... sand quite aggressively everywhere it has been..... otherwise the repair will not stick...... nothing sticks to silicone.... ever......
Consider using epoxy (Wests, Sip or others) as it will adhere to the existing GRP better than polyester resin and is generally a little more friendly to work with. Additionally with the addition of various powder fillers, micro balloons and the like it can be used in many other applications around the boat as a filler and glue.
Dean - Boating on the Great Ouse.
Freeman 32 "Liberty"
See the photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/54758027@N00/ |
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fitvit
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 17:46:56
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Cut a peice about 60cm/3 feet long and lay it across the join and screw it down to old and new hog??? Okay I've followed most of that apart from this bit! Cut a peice of what?
ford |
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fitvit
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 22:58:04
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So can I just clarify that you think this grommet from the end of the sea toilet outlet won't be the cause of the water and its most likely a build up of water from inside?
jojo  |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2016 : 12:10:31
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Unless what you call a grommet is the wet hole with silicon in which case that could be the culprit. Possibly some fool in the past drilled a hole through the hog for an echo-sounder transducer or similar - who knows?
I had somehow assumed that the rotted section was in the cockpit area - are you saying it is in the cabin? i.e. around that "wet hole"? It makes no difference to the repair strategy if it;s in thr cabin sole area except that you'll be running out of keel below if you hack too far into the bow.
I know folk say use epoxy because it bonds better but in 50 years of boatwork I have never had a bond issue with the polyester in critical and non-critical areas using the preparation method I outlined, and it is massively cheaper but it is your call. What you do need to do is get rid of the rot, dry it all out, and bond in and glass over a new section with if possible a doubled section over the joins to spread the loads again. It looks as though the small bunk bulkhead is a bit on the wet side too but that is non-structural as far as the hull is concerned but you might need to remove it whilst sorting out the hog.
As I said - you'll probably expose a wet hole in the keel unless they laid up a timber into it in which case that will probably need hacking out too. Main thing to keep in mind is that the required strength is not to support your 150lbs on the inside but to support the hull on the outside if it sits on chocks, rocks, or trailer.
Out of the water you'll have it chocked properly because I assume the yard have lifted and placed it for you and they seldom get it wrong, but once afloat it could wind up aground over your repair!
Finally living the dream!
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fitvit
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2016 : 22:36:23
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Yes, its in the cabin area. Well I've spent all day today working on the boat today. Like you said, I removed the silicone from the hole in the cabin and then cut out a rectangular hole in the fibre glass using a grinder which exposed the timber hog. The wood underneath was really wet and looked a bit rotten so I cut a 12 inch section out of it, but it turned out the wood wasn't too rotten, just really wet! However the gap in the 'hog' enabled me to clear out the water using blue roll and then small dribbles of water continued to slowly drain into it from the rest of the hog throughout the day. I cut a couple more small hole into the fibre glass covering the hog further up the keel to see how far up the water went, but fortunately the rest of it was pretty dry. I still can't find a hole underneath to work out how the water got in there so I'm hoping it's like dm said, and that its just condensation. My plan is to now leave it to dry out while I work on the rest of the boat and leave repairing the hog and glassing it over until I've no more jobs left. (could be about 2 months) Is this what you'd advise?? Here is a photo of the hole I've cut before I cleared out the water. It took about 4 handfuls of toilet roll to soak it up and the I've probably had about half an egg cup full dribble out throughout the rest of today. Does this still look like it could have been condensation build up or does it look like too much water for that? 
jojo |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2016 : 07:16:49
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Too much water yes, so either bilge water has found it's way into the keel area through faulty layup inside or the river has found it's way in through damage outside, in which case the keel area near the bow is the likely culprit as that is the bit that usually hits things first.
Chances are you would not be looking for a hole so much as an area of crazing indicating a pressure stress and possibly a small split. Have a close look underneath. It might even be a previous repair that is dodgy.
If you do find something, grind the whole area brutally with a 40 grit flap disc and lay up glass and resin over it. Finish off by painting a coat of resin only to make sure you seal the glass strands. Don't worry about looks unless you're a fish.
Finally living the dream!
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fitvit
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2016 : 13:08:56
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Well this is it this morning, so its quite clearly drying out. I'm really thinking that it could have leaked in from the grommets underneath the boat (sea toilet outlet/inlet) If the grommet wasn't sealing the outer skin properly would the water that leaked in be able to make its way down into the keel?
jojo |
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cliveshep
Thailand
1324 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2016 : 14:21:48
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I'm the other side of the world to you so you're the one on the spot. Water could have got into the bilges from the skin fittings if they weren't sealed off, not grommets - wrong terminology - and as I said before water laying in the bilges would find it's way through any damage to the layup over the hog.
I can see that the keel void is sealed which is good, hopefully it is solid over a lump of timber.
I could not be certain from here where water has got in, but if not the skin fittings then a leaky hood, leaky windows, leaky deck fittings, windscreen, grab rails, or simply a rain storm during a cruise allowing water to get into the cockpit under the floor boards and left there.
Who knows? But while your boat is out of the water you have a golden opportunity to minutely inspect the hull underneath for damage so that you can at least discount that scenario. It might be a bit draconian but one way to prove a hull is get a hose and stick 6 inches of water in it and look for drips outside underneath. I know it's a pain to pump it out afterwards but not as bigger pain if it has damage to the hull allowing water to creep in over a period and wreck all your new work.
Finally living the dream!
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fitvit
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2016 : 16:32:51
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Funnily enough my next job is to sort out the VERY leaky window. About half a cup full of water sits in the bottom of the boat everytime it rains because of a piece of perspex in the centre/fixed part of the long side window. I just can't see any weak spots in the bilge that would enable to that water to enter the keel . . . .but hopefully thats where it has come from and once sorted will be no more!
jojo |
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aaarrrgghhh I can't find the damn leak . . .
