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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Peter Walker |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 10:17:28
If you have a look at the Practical Boat Owner website www.pbo.co.uk you will see that you can download a copy of the first issue of PBO magazine from January 1967. On page 8 of that first issue was a quarter page advert for "the NEW NORMAN RANGE" - it started in those days at £198 for the Norman 17 in basic form. That consisted of the hull and deck bonded together, with windows, main bulkhead and fender fitted: everything else was left for home completion. In the 1970s they offered a DeLuxe version fully fitted-out but that cost considerably more!
I reckon it is a shame that somebody doesn't/cannot sell similar hulls for home completion today. Today's prices would make that about £1,999 for a 17 footer, £3,999 for a 22 footer and £5,999 for a 25 footer !
Norman 22 on the river Avon, Warwickshire |
| 7 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Steve T |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 18:38:33
Hi Stan
The boatbuilding is in my past now, worked in GRP for 20 years building many boats of all sorts (Oyster 55 the biggest).
"Chopper gun" laminating is quicker than laying by hand, the guns aren't stupid money, but you do need a commercial set up really with a decent compressor and plenty of space!
One thing it can't do is lay woven roving reinforcement into the mouldings. These really need to be placed accurately and in this case, manual laminating is best.
If I ever was in a position to build a new hull for myself, I would still do it by hand.
By the way, a new hull and deck mould for a Norman COULD be made off a sound boat in about 6 weeks, but would cost £40K+ to do properly.
I doubt the sums would add up, even if you have 40 people to put up £1000 each, and then be prepared to pay £12K each for a set of mouldings.
Waiting for the last set would drive you to tears (40 sets of mouldings is a good 4 years work), and like I said buying a sound original set and spending £10K on them would produce just as good results.
If there were 40 like-minded people out there, the boat yards would bite your hands off for a guaranteed contract for a set of tools and 40 builds over 4 years! Once upon a time, I would have dreamt of a contract like this.
Still waiting for the outboard to be done, taking the opportunity to lift it off the boat and have a full service along with the fix.
Have been told it should be done by next Thursday.....Hmmmm! |
| Stan the Man |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 06:33:37
SteveT
I hope your venture into boat building is not delaying the repair on your outboard!
It is clear that moulds are the critical investment in hull construction and, after all, it was their loss which must have contributed greatly to the demise of Norman in the early eighties. I have been told that nowadays GRP material is often applied by spraying (similar to "Shotcrete") so that whilst the labour costs can be reduced there would be a substantial investment in machinery and the expected sales volume would need to be capable of reflecting this.
The fact that most people seem to fulfill their boating dreams by buying a long canister of corrosive material which they then spend a small fortune on maintaining in order that they have a similar environment to their usual home would tend to restrict the potential market to those odd types, particularly myself, who are happy to live for short periods in somewhat cramped but cosy conditions on the basis that it is great fun and gets one away from the list of chores at home.
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| Steve T |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 21:23:12
Here's my two-pennies worth...
I would think that a 24 foot bare hull and deck moulding would be around £9K in material and labour, so selling around the £12K mark would be about right. However, a decent set of mould tools could be £50K+, so the builder would add another £3 - 5K onto the selling price to make it commercially viable, so think more like £16K.
The layup could be a little heavier if you wanted, but new mats and resins are far better than in the 70's.
Find a sound original, have it stripped, cleaned back, repaired as needed, have new floor bearers bonded in, along with at least a main bulkhead to stiffen nicely, and have the whole thing sprayed up.
You could probably do this for less than £12K all in, even at proper professional laminating rates.
I have known this work before for owners clubs, who buy the moulds between them, based on 15 or 20 parties in a co-op arrangement, and then they each take it in turns to have the mouldings produced.
Now to find the moulds....
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| Peter Walker |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 09:06:28
I think the significant point is that in the 60s and 70s they sold bare boats for home completion. I suspect that the Recreational Craft Directive, and fear of litigation has made manufacturers reluctant to sell craft that may be poorly completed by inexperienced builders?
You and I know that fitting out a boat is very expensive if done to a high standard with new materials and with all the extras that folk take for granted these days. I am not so sure that the cost of a bare hull would be much more than I have suggested - certainly within a factor of 2. Remember this is without engine system, fuel system, water system, electric 12V system, 240V system, gas system, internal bulkheads, furniture, heads, lighting, instruments, galley, soft furnishings, canopy, floor, carpet or decor. With labour costs as well I think that fitting out a boat to modern standards must account for considerably more than half the total cost of a boat - it could be 60 or 70%? In which case £25,000 to £30,000 for a new boat is equivalent to a bare hull for £8,000 - £12,000. So perhaps only twice what I guessed in my first post.
I am happy to be corrected, if you know better
Norman 22 on the river Avon, Warwickshire |
| Stan the Man |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 06:07:42
Lester Mayo
I can see the the costs of raw materials will have risen but proportionally greater than relative values of money then and now? I have been told by a couple of people "in the trade" than much less material is now used on GRP cruisers with the result that modern boats have a somewhat alarming tendency to twist whilst out of the water in comparison to those, including Normans, built in "those dear dead days beyond recall".
I must admit that I never cease to be amazed at the cost of a new outboard particularly those of the diesel persuasion. High-tech they ain't yet they cost more than a brand new BMW engine - economies of scale again I suppose. |
| Lester Mayo |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 16:43:35
Costs of labour,resin, and strand mat make GRP quite expensive to produce boats now. Have a look at what they charge for a new Atlanta.
A 2010 24ft boat is for sale at Tingdene Boat sales for £30k
Don't take life too serious, it's not permanent |
| Stan the Man |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 11:54:37
Peter
Ah those were the days - England had won the World Cup the previous year, we were all immortal and the summers were a succession of long hot lazy days!
I do agree that the prices seem remarkable but labour was a lot cheaper then. In addition, although I did not get married until 1975 when we had our first hire boat (a Norman 18 named Jane 3) on the Oxford, at that time the "plastic" boat was very common and narrow boats few and far between. In a book I bought recently, "Waterways of Northamptonshire", there is a picture of Whilton Marina on the GU in 1989 crammed full of Normans, etc. Current cruiser prices are presumably due to a lack of economies of scale although the difference between your updated costings and the prices of a modern Norman-equivalent are so far apart as to suggest that other factors are in play which does not, I suspect, come down to the quality of the wood used internally! I'd love to debate what factors these might be.
Regards, Stan Owen |
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